rns.recipes

Hi everybody!

I learned about reticulum from the page freie-messenger.de - and it's definitely one of the coolest things I learned about in the last months.

I have a few beginner questions. But let's first check if I'm able to use this interface correctly, and if this text appears.

Ok, seems to work :-) So here are my questions:

(1) Can I expect that a reticulum based communication between me, a guy sitting at home using a laptop, and someone walking around with a mobile phone, is a suitable replacement for something like, say, Signal? I don't mean fancy stuff and groups, but can I expect that it works relyably enough to be usable in situations like "my bus arrives in 10 minutes, please pick me up!"? I assume "yes, if you know what you are doing" so, sorry, I didn't mean to offend anyone.

But which programs should we use for daily chats? On the laptop I would like to have some kind of notification on the desktop so that I don't miss any message. I guess nomadnet would not be the best fit here - so sideband? It seems to have notifications (I get some text bubbles on the screen), although the icon in the sidebar doesn't blink for me. Or meshchatx? The best thing would be something permanent, that blinks or whatever until I check the new messages. I'm on Debian if it matters.

(2) So far the feature "messages are delayed, not dismissed, and delivered when the other peer gets reachable" didn't work for us. What are the conditions to have conversations with this feature? Do we have to select a certain propagation node, something else? I did not check how this feature is technically implemented. But sideband did give a feedback that sounded like it would work as I expect. But when the other peer got available, nothing happened, and the message did not get delivered. When both peers are connected, communication always works normally.

(3) Is using a lora pager like device in a small city a realistic alternative for a smarphone (I hate smartphones) to be able to communicate? Would I have to install a small radio antenna in or on my house? My area has no lora nodes in the nearer surroundings.

Ah, ok, and this one:

(4) When using a smartphone, is it realistic that the "app" (like sideband) doesn't use too much of the battery constantly all the time, and it still "wakes up" when there is a new lxmf message? It would be unfortunate when the battery is empty after 4 hours or so...or if the smartphone owner misses my messages. I ask because here on my laptop, I see constant data exchange with the reticulum net. I know about these 2% of the bandwidth that I can change, it doesn't matter here much, but on the smartphone something like "look only every 2 minutes, sleep the rest of the time" might be better. Sorry if this is a nonsense question, I don't know much about these devices.

(5) What is the easiest way to support reticulum for somebody who is not completely unclever but never used a crypto currency? In your opinion? Financial support? Spread the word and tell friends?

(6) What is a good setup for a Debian user (me)? I really don't want to mess with systemd, I want to run things locally. Does it make sense to run lxmd in the background, started with user privileges? Or rnsd? I have installed everything with pipx. I plan to always have something running to be able to be notified when a message to my lxmf addresss arrives.

Ok - that's it. I apologize for this overwhelming amount of text. If you think this was unkind, please tell me. Or you could tell me "RTFM" (and maybe which parts...). I read through it but not everything, I'm on a tour atm and thought it would be a good moment of time to just ask before diving into the technical details.

Thank you for reading up to here, thanks for everyone making this stuff possible, all of it, and have a nice day!

Ok - that's it. I apologize for this overwhelming amount of text. If you think this was unkind, please tell me. Or you could tell me "RTFM" (and maybe which parts...). I read through it but not everything, I'm on a tour atm and thought it would be a good moment of time to just ask before diving into the technical details.

Thank you for reading up to here, thanks for everyone making this stuff possible, all of it, and have a nice day!

(1) Can I expect that a reticulum based communication....
Not really. Most are used to centralized server based comms with push services. If you have all set up properly and are using a properly set up and reliable interface for transport, you can expect pretty much very fast and stable comms. If you go over LoRa and for example use a TCP interface server somewhere half-way around the world, that is not capable or set up properly, you might expect delays and/or messages not going trough. This is why it is important to properly set up local resources like TCP Backbones, LoRa-TCP gateways on good locations, local propagation nodes, etc. You cannot expect to buy a cheap LoRa node or use someone else's TCP Backbone, a random propagation node and have reliable comms. This is what owning your means of communication means - actively developing them to be reliable, stable and lasting. In my case I can rely on all these locally, so my messaging, with tiny exceptions, is very fast and smooth.
(2) So far the feature "messages are delayed, not dismissed...
Again - just select a reliable propagation node. I cannot judge for others and I have no idea where you are, but I can suggest you try rns.sofia prop, because I can say it is very much stable and absolutely properly configured - 1e96a12e2ac59bfebd604a6e3cb95a68 Sometimes LXMD dies on me, but i catch it pretty fast and restart it. For now I have no active means to automate this.
(3) Is using a lora pager like device in a small city a realistic alternative...
Well it depends heavily on many factors. IF we take for granted you have already setup a proper backend, TCP, prop, etc., the radio aspect depends heavily on propagation conditions in your area, laws, gear, placement of nodes, setup of nodes, etc. Small town is far from good description of where you want to deploy, what you want to deploy. Reticulum is not an easy drop-in solution for anything, it's a tool you have to learn to use, deploy, maintain. In my case it took mor than 7 months to get to this - rns.sofia network and I still have to put up the LoRa network, so any meaningful coverage can allow for me to go over LoRa fully and dismiss TCP. Yes, I am in a 2.5 million deep city and running 433MHz, but still.
(4) When using a smartphone, is it realistic that the "app" (like sideband) doesn't use too much of the battery...
You are no more the end user to a service. YOU ARE the network. There is no PUSH, no servers doing the heavy lifting. YOU ARE the endpoint. You have to listen to announces, resolve paths actively, wait for messages. This takes battery. And if you go for the ultimate goal of SHARING your hardware by enabling Transport mode, so you can retranslate other's messages, you will drain battery even faster.
(5) What is the easiest way to support reticulum for somebody who is...
https://liberapay.com/~1880498/

Thanks for your kind reply. And all of the information.
Regarding the battery thing: I've read the zen of reticulum, but the technical implications are not so clear to me. I mean, say a user has a smartphone with a reticulum based messaging app installed. So, at least this node "knows" or could know: "I'm on a mobile phone". At least in theory, the propagation node directly after the phone, it knows that this is one end point (i.e. identical with the message's addressee) - could it not just do the same kind of push as a central server does? Or does this depend on an http protocol feature? Maybe reticulum and lxmf are not able to support such a feature because they are using a very economical and sparse model of meta data. But, in my naive understanding, I would not expect something named "push", something that is able to wake up a smartphone, to depend on a centristic network model.

Note that I have no concrete idea what "push" technically, in this context, means exactly.

And, then, regarding my lora question: I'm in Germany. Villages, some smaller towns, some higher mountains (say, 400m up to 700m altitude). I would probably lack the knowledge to set up something on my own. But with the help of interested other people it might be possible.

A push is a notification action, outside of the scope of an application. It is delivered on Android phones by Google Play Services, the same exact thing, that turns your phone into ... not your phone, but their phone. Your messaging app sleeps dormant and is unable to receive a message, while in this state. It relies on an external entity for it to either react and wake up, or at least Android to place a notification dot over the app's icon and bing-bing you. Some apps have their own push service, say Tutanota Mail, a bit slow but works fine. So there you have the battery story for you - this is how they consume so little. By just being asleep. But when your app is your endpoint, and all else is just a conduit, it has to be sane and awake all the time. And responsive and alive.
There is no metadata. Only a destination hash, that gets looked up in paths, recently discovered via announces. You have no two-way networking, hard set. No one except you knows you are an endpoint, phone, toaster, go-cart. This is not the networking principle you have been trained to rely on.
As for the LoRa aspect, I think there are people here from Germany, that might help you locally. In such environments and smartly (read high and clear) placed nodes, you should get kilometers of uninhibited range. A 700m mountain will shield off whatever is behind it, so getting a node on top of it if possible will be great.
Just a suggestion. Get a Google Pixel 8/9/10 second hand and install GrapheneOS. Get your phone back for yourself.
Educate yourself. No one is gonna digest the tacit knowledge of personal, sovereign networking for you. It is gained by doing stuff, realizing they don't really work, thinking, reading, than asking others. The only way for you to "steal" this knowledge is the classical one - if we work side by side. But as we live in a world divided and the self-serving nature is high on pedestal, we cannot really do this efficiently. So you have a lot more to do by yourself to get up to speed. The Zen is nice, but the full manual is more important https://reticulum.network/manual/index.html . Go trough it. Than go again. You don't need to memorize it, just get the framework in your head, so you will be able to refer quickly in your mind and search later. Get to know LoRa, tons of good stuff online. And learn a bit about radio wave propagation, a bit about antennas, a bit here and a bit there, common sense and common technical culture. You are about, if you don't consider it too much for you, to become your own network operator. This takes knowledge and understanding. Take it slow. You will be fine.
Some stuff from around here:
https://rns.recipes/forum/help/what-do-q-and-s-mean-on-the-rnode-interface
A little bit about radio and propagation.
https://rns.recipes/forum/showcase/reticulum-announce-propagation-simulator
Nick's amazing propagation simulator.

Rudi Mentaire wrote:

Thanks for your kind reply. And all of the information.
Regarding the battery thing: I've read the zen of reticulum, but the technical implications are not so clear to me. I mean, say a user has a smartphone with a reticulum based messaging app installed. So, at least this node "knows" or could know: "I'm on a mobile phone". At least in theory, the propagation node directly after the phone, it knows that this is one end point (i.e. identical with the message's addressee) - could it not just do the same kind of push as a central server does? Or does this depend on an http protocol feature? Maybe reticulum and lxmf are not able to support such a feature because they are using a very economical and sparse model of meta data. But, in my naive understanding, I would not expect something named "push", something that is able to wake up a smartphone, to depend on a centristic network model.

Note that I have no concrete idea what "push" technically, in this context, means exactly.

LXMF is designed to run over Reticulum, so a Reticulum connection needs to exist so the application can receive messages. LXMF doesn't have the concept of pushing a message to a device (eg polling a server) because it's meant to be decentralised and a centralised server is needed for pushing.

Rudi Mentaire wrote:

Thanks for your kind reply. And all of the information.
Regarding the battery thing: I've read the zen of reticulum, but the technical implications are not so clear to me. I mean, say a user has a smartphone with a reticulum based messaging app installed. So, at least this node "knows" or could know: "I'm on a mobile phone". At least in theory, the propagation node directly after the phone, it knows that this is one end point (i.e. identical with the message's addressee) - could it not just do the same kind of push as a central server does? Or does this depend on an http protocol feature? Maybe reticulum and lxmf are not able to support such a feature because they are using a very economical and sparse model of meta data. But, in my naive understanding, I would not expect something named "push", something that is able to wake up a smartphone, to depend on a centristic network model.

Note that I have no concrete idea what "push" technically, in this context, means exactly.

LXMF is designed to run over Reticulum, so a Reticulum connection needs to exist so the application can receive messages. LXMF doesn't have the concept of pushing a message to a device (eg polling a server) because it's meant to be decentralised and a centralised server is needed for pushing.

Rudi Mentaire wrote:

Thanks for your kind reply. And all of the information.
Regarding the battery thing: I've read the zen of reticulum, but the technical implications are not so clear to me. I mean, say a user has a smartphone with a reticulum based messaging app installed. So, at least this node "knows" or could know: "I'm on a mobile phone". At least in theory, the propagation node directly after the phone, it knows that this is one end point (i.e. identical with the message's addressee) - could it not just do the same kind of push as a central server does? Or does this depend on an http protocol feature? Maybe reticulum and lxmf are not able to support such a feature because they are using a very economical and sparse model of meta data. But, in my naive understanding, I would not expect something named "push", something that is able to wake up a smartphone, to depend on a centristic network model.

Note that I have no concrete idea what "push" technically, in this context, means exactly.

LXMF is designed to run over Reticulum, so a Reticulum connection needs to exist so the application can receive messages. LXMF doesn't have the concept of pushing a message to a device (eg polling a server) because it's meant to be decentralised and a centralised server is needed for pushing.

Thank you both, aetherlab and someone Anonymous.

A bit offtopic:
Yes, I once tried to use a phone with an Android derivative. The ratio of needed time invest vs. gain was not acceptable. It already started with the requirement of having a Windows system to get the system onto the phone. And then all of those half baked compromises that required fixes all the time, no guarantee that the system is still usable at all in the medium future... and I already own a laptop with a quite reliable OS.

So now I have a phone that is completely insecure but never has a connection to the internet. It's just turned off 99% of the time. But I can't check whether a thunderstorm is near, no access to any kind of online information.

In Germany one can buy secured phones with preinstalled Graphene from nitrokey.com (I mean, it's a German company) - so I would probably take the shortcut and buy a phone from them if my old phone is broken.

Thank you both, aetherlab and someone Anonymous.

A bit offtopic:
Yes, I once tried to use a phone with an Android derivative. The ratio of needed time invest vs. gain was not acceptable. It already started with the requirement of having a Windows system to get the system onto the phone. And then all of those half baked compromises that required fixes all the time, no guarantee that the system is still usable at all in the medium future... and I already own a laptop with a quite reliable OS.

So now I have a phone that is completely insecure but never has a connection to the internet. It's just turned off 99% of the time. But I can't check whether a thunderstorm is near, no access to any kind of online information.

In Germany one can buy secured phones with preinstalled Graphene from nitrokey.com (I mean, it's a German company) - so I would probably take the shortcut and buy a phone from them if my old phone is broken.

BTW, the double posts seem to be caused by a bug. I'm using nomadnet and hit the "Submit Reply" button exactly once. No "the first time didn't work" or something like that.

Maybe the reply reaches the node where this forum is hosted several times via different routes and they are not treated as identical by the forum software, I don't know.

But anyway - I don't like the whole smartphone ecosystem, the operating concept, the hardware, what it does to people, all the waste of time, etc. etc. etc. so: this is the main reason for my interest in alternatives.